One can't overstate the historical impact of Super Mario 64. Its analog-stick controls and adjustable camera set the stage for 21st century gaming. Its 3D platforming has as many imitators as a mid-1960s Beatles album. And there's still nothing like the surreal invitation to stretch the features of Mario's big face before the game even starts.
But I still hesitate to call Mario 64 great. Once you acknowledge the major leap in presentation and get over the thrill of moving in three-dimensional space, you're left with a Mario that overemphasizes the collection of items in levels that you must play to death. Before Mario 64, Mario games had a momentum to them. Mario 64 feels more like a scavenger hunt without stakes. There's little urgency or pressure. By the halfway point, I'm already disinterested.
And whatever happened to the creative thinking behind Mario's abilities? The conservatism started with Super Mario World, which merely updated how the hero can fly and gave him a gimmicky dinosaur buddy. In Mario 64, the most notable addition is the expanded repertoire of jumps, but let's not forget this more acrobatic style already showed up in the greatest remake of all time, Donkey Kong 1994. The effects of the special caps in Mario 64 don't spark my imagination: another flying ability and two passive abilities, one of which corrects the stupid regressive rule that Mario can't breathe underwater. It's almost as if 1990s Nintendo threw up its hands after conceiving the wide array of game-changing powers in Super Mario Bros. 3 and Yoshi's Island.
I also despise Mario 64's patronizing, one-dimensional tone. This is a case where the massive influence of Mario 64 has short-circuited the gaming world's memory of what pop games could achieve emotionally. No matter the stage, Mario hoots like he just won the lottery as he jumps about. This creative decision smacks of the condescension Nintendo trotted out with the smiling clouds in the remakes within Super Mario All-Stars. It's clear Nintendo stopped trusting the emotional reactions of its audience with the release of Mario 64. Now people expect to hear the cute yelps and get showered with praise for finding a star under a rock. Would our tails no longer wag without these features?
But I still hesitate to call Mario 64 great. Once you acknowledge the major leap in presentation and get over the thrill of moving in three-dimensional space, you're left with a Mario that overemphasizes the collection of items in levels that you must play to death. Before Mario 64, Mario games had a momentum to them. Mario 64 feels more like a scavenger hunt without stakes. There's little urgency or pressure. By the halfway point, I'm already disinterested.
And whatever happened to the creative thinking behind Mario's abilities? The conservatism started with Super Mario World, which merely updated how the hero can fly and gave him a gimmicky dinosaur buddy. In Mario 64, the most notable addition is the expanded repertoire of jumps, but let's not forget this more acrobatic style already showed up in the greatest remake of all time, Donkey Kong 1994. The effects of the special caps in Mario 64 don't spark my imagination: another flying ability and two passive abilities, one of which corrects the stupid regressive rule that Mario can't breathe underwater. It's almost as if 1990s Nintendo threw up its hands after conceiving the wide array of game-changing powers in Super Mario Bros. 3 and Yoshi's Island.
I also despise Mario 64's patronizing, one-dimensional tone. This is a case where the massive influence of Mario 64 has short-circuited the gaming world's memory of what pop games could achieve emotionally. No matter the stage, Mario hoots like he just won the lottery as he jumps about. This creative decision smacks of the condescension Nintendo trotted out with the smiling clouds in the remakes within Super Mario All-Stars. It's clear Nintendo stopped trusting the emotional reactions of its audience with the release of Mario 64. Now people expect to hear the cute yelps and get showered with praise for finding a star under a rock. Would our tails no longer wag without these features?
26 Comments
SunlitSonata, first of all, I did not close the Celeste thread. I'm new to this site, so I don't understand all of the functions/rules/etc.
At this point I'm 100 percent convinced you're oversensitive. There was nothing wrong with me giving a succinct reaction to Celeste. And if I want to recommend a better platformer, there should be no problem with that. You have failed to demonstrate how I personally attacked you. What's really going on is you have an unhealthy attachment to Celeste, and so if someone like me says they hate it, you take it to heart as if I'm talking to you directly. I see nothing wrong with your Persona 5/SMT Nocturne example. Furthermore, I don't have to create a special level of understanding for you. The idea that every review I write has to have the same detail and tone as my Mario 64 review is absolutely ludicrous. You are as entitled as you are delicate.
At this point I'm 100 percent convinced you're oversensitive. There was nothing wrong with me giving a succinct reaction to Celeste. And if I want to recommend a better platformer, there should be no problem with that. You have failed to demonstrate how I personally attacked you. What's really going on is you have an unhealthy attachment to Celeste, and so if someone like me says they hate it, you take it to heart as if I'm talking to you directly. I see nothing wrong with your Persona 5/SMT Nocturne example. Furthermore, I don't have to create a special level of understanding for you. The idea that every review I write has to have the same detail and tone as my Mario 64 review is absolutely ludicrous. You are as entitled as you are delicate.
Lol, "patronizing one-dimensional tone". It's a game made for children.
Hey Jed. It's nice to see you here and read you. About SunlitSonata, don't give him much attention. He's a known user in this web for this kind of behavior. For context, take a look at the commentary section of this Elden Ring review.
https://www.backloggd.com/u/Woodaba/review/337912/
https://www.backloggd.com/u/Woodaba/review/337912/
DJSCheddar, your argument doesn't hold up. There's plenty of art and entertainment made for kids that doesn't stoop to this level of patronization. Some also argue that Super Mario Bros., Mario 2, and Mario 3 are for kids, yet all of those games have far more emotional variation than Mario 64.
Also, Miyamoto never intended Mario to be thought of as a character primarily for children: https://nintendoeverything.com/miyamoto-i-would-never-call-mario-a-kids-game-or-a-mascot-that-only-kids-understand/
Also, Miyamoto never intended Mario to be thought of as a character primarily for children: https://nintendoeverything.com/miyamoto-i-would-never-call-mario-a-kids-game-or-a-mascot-that-only-kids-understand/
An absolutely ridiculous criticism of a Mario game. Miyamoto says he makes games to bring families together and have everyone feel good about playing. Whatever 'emotional variation' you perceive in the first three Mario games, of all imaginable games, is you projecting. They're fun-time cartoon games with your buddy the happy plumber Mario. Things are allowed to be simple.
Lmao! You were the one pretending Mario is only for children. Your argument completely shifted after I shattered your original (and laughably desperate and inaccurate) point.
And is it just my perception that no moment in Mario 64 ever reaches the level of bleakness of Mario 3's Dark Land or matches the sense of ever-building dread in the castle levels of Super Mario Bros.? Once you introduce a hero who is perpetually hooting like an imbecile and a game that constantly pats you on the back, you narrow the tonal possibilities considerably.
And is it just my perception that no moment in Mario 64 ever reaches the level of bleakness of Mario 3's Dark Land or matches the sense of ever-building dread in the castle levels of Super Mario Bros.? Once you introduce a hero who is perpetually hooting like an imbecile and a game that constantly pats you on the back, you narrow the tonal possibilities considerably.
I am not making an argument. This is not debate club, as much as you seem to wish it were. I'm saying that what you're saying is ridiculous. Shigeru Miyamoto may acknowledge that kids are not the only people who can enjoy Mario games, but if you don't think Mario games are made for kids, I honestly don't know what to tell you.
Your weird Self-Promoting Armond White of Video Games thing is already tiresome here.
Your weird Self-Promoting Armond White of Video Games thing is already tiresome here.
Hahaha, you clearly are arguing. But whatever helps you get over the fact that you walked into this comment section with the coherence of a 65-year-old town drunk on an Independence Day weekend.
Wow. Well maybe I should look at the bright side of this - at least you're providing a very specific type of cringe we don't see much of here. Keep it coming!
From my point of review, Mario's jumping sounds in 64 are, and have, the equivalent energy of the sound effects of the original NES Marios. Also, they became iconic. For memes and for speedrunning even.
@sunlitsonata dude, it's not worth it. Take one look at that website this dude shared and all of his reviews are like this
yeah that "condescension" part of your review bugs me too. your section and comments on this hinge on the vocalizations of the main character. for one, as Lot0 mentioned, the mario series has traditionally provided audio feedback when jumping; sm64 chooses to do this with vocal samples rather than boings or bloops. i think it's fair to call this annoying perhaps, but i feel like this is not sufficient evidence to imply the game is not capable of emotional resonance. you cite smb3's dark land or smb1's castles as examples those games are capable of this. these examples exist in sm64 as well: consider the biting piano in big boo's haunt, or the suffocating poison labyrinth within hazy maze cave, or the waterlogged, abandoned city within dire dire docks. if the requisite for emotional variety is simply presenting a variety of aesthetics that include surface-level "sad" or "scary" locales, then sm64 meets this with aplomb. i can accept these at face value even with "wahoo" and "mama mia" voice samples as much as i can the military procession of smb3's dark land overlaid with "blip" and "bing" square waves coming from the nes.
mentioning the praise when a star is collected is also odd to me. what is the correct level of feedback the player requires without becoming "condescending"? the stars are major collectibles, and the animation/camera work of mario celebrating collecting one establish it as such compared to the much more muted response from picking up coins or the change in music from picking up a power-up. do you feel as though you are being treated as a child unless mario were to wordlessly collect stars and plop outside the level with zero fanfare? i could potentially understand this reaction if the star-collection feedback was overwrought to the point of wasting the player's time, but the whole thing lasts less than 30 seconds. i would call it cathartic: mario brushes himself off and takes a breather after overcoming some obstacle, giving us a respite to bask in our accomplishment. i also object to the idea that sm64 has somehow caused these elements to overwhelm the general gaming culture. if you feel insulted by a mario game could you not simply play a game that flatters your sense of maturity like the last of us or red dead redemption? there are so many well-known games that provoke a different emotional reaction with different tools than sm64; to imply that it has choked the popular imagination seems hyperbolic.
mentioning the praise when a star is collected is also odd to me. what is the correct level of feedback the player requires without becoming "condescending"? the stars are major collectibles, and the animation/camera work of mario celebrating collecting one establish it as such compared to the much more muted response from picking up coins or the change in music from picking up a power-up. do you feel as though you are being treated as a child unless mario were to wordlessly collect stars and plop outside the level with zero fanfare? i could potentially understand this reaction if the star-collection feedback was overwrought to the point of wasting the player's time, but the whole thing lasts less than 30 seconds. i would call it cathartic: mario brushes himself off and takes a breather after overcoming some obstacle, giving us a respite to bask in our accomplishment. i also object to the idea that sm64 has somehow caused these elements to overwhelm the general gaming culture. if you feel insulted by a mario game could you not simply play a game that flatters your sense of maturity like the last of us or red dead redemption? there are so many well-known games that provoke a different emotional reaction with different tools than sm64; to imply that it has choked the popular imagination seems hyperbolic.
valid viewpoints
although i must thank god for not making me the kind of person that goes into mario 64 to write scathing analysis of the condescending nature of smiley-faces on clouds and mario saying "wahoo"
although i must thank god for not making me the kind of person that goes into mario 64 to write scathing analysis of the condescending nature of smiley-faces on clouds and mario saying "wahoo"
to a degree i understand where you're coming from but upbeat sound effects have been a means to add a certain "catchiness" to games since their inception. even pitfall on the 2600 has a little jingle whenever you do something as rudimentary as grabbing a vine
hell, even the original smb flagpole sequence is emblematic of this
moreover mario has always been a cute and colorful ip. it just wasn't shown as clearly in western marketing early on. japan's all about that kind of disney-inspired chibi cuteness especially with big mascots
basically, your stance makes sense but it isn't consistent
hell, even the original smb flagpole sequence is emblematic of this
moreover mario has always been a cute and colorful ip. it just wasn't shown as clearly in western marketing early on. japan's all about that kind of disney-inspired chibi cuteness especially with big mascots
basically, your stance makes sense but it isn't consistent
Congrats to everyone for putting 100x more thought into this premise than he did. This is how he wins!
wahoo
"Oof!" -funny Mario noise
on a more serious note, celeste's creator actually transitioned so you should probably edit your review.
Jed, the Celeste thread got locked, meaning that no further comments could be made on it. Regardless of the reason it was possible to continue the discussion on that thread. It might have been from a Backloggd admin who saw things were getting too heated.
My issue was the TONE of the comparisons solely to put down something else in the name of giving another thing merit, instead of the more interesting back and forth comparisons should be. I have nothing against comparison. I'm against comparisons when they are solely made to shit on the taste of others because they see something in art that you can't. There are lots of ways you can make comparisons in a more friendly manner without demeaning other people or using phrases 99% of people would be incredibly confused about even as insults (unsexy video game prison). Like say, appealing to a Persona 5 fan based on the appeal of the battle system to try to get them into Nocturne. That you see nothing wrong with spiteful recommendations suggests you're a person who has no problem gleefully shitting on other peoples' tastes to make yourself seem more cultured instead of trying to understand their optimism and using the other game as an appeal of "if you want more of that thing you really liked in X, try Y".
I don't know why you're so adamant about justifying your role here as a clickbait contrarian in the name of sounding like a "smart" scholar of games. You're new here, but a trap that too many others fall into on Backloggd is talking about games not for what the actual experience of playing them with controller in hand is like, but the weird bents taken against their politics/messages, because mainstream game review journalism won't touch that bugbear.
You don't like Celeste? Understandable. Critique its game design, progression, structure, presentation, music, controls, etc. Attempt to see what it's going for and how and why those who enjoy it enjoy it. Don't just sound like a hateful contrarian spewing unwarranted juvenile insults its way because lots of people got more out of it than you had, and that they didn't give attention to a game most people have never heard of because it lacked a combination of factors that made Celeste rise from the ashes. When I say more of your reviews here should follow the path of the Mario 64 one, I meant that to say it should be personal interpretations of gameplay design and not inflammatory attempts to set off people who get something out of art that you don't. It's a toxic way of analyzing art.
My issue was the TONE of the comparisons solely to put down something else in the name of giving another thing merit, instead of the more interesting back and forth comparisons should be. I have nothing against comparison. I'm against comparisons when they are solely made to shit on the taste of others because they see something in art that you can't. There are lots of ways you can make comparisons in a more friendly manner without demeaning other people or using phrases 99% of people would be incredibly confused about even as insults (unsexy video game prison). Like say, appealing to a Persona 5 fan based on the appeal of the battle system to try to get them into Nocturne. That you see nothing wrong with spiteful recommendations suggests you're a person who has no problem gleefully shitting on other peoples' tastes to make yourself seem more cultured instead of trying to understand their optimism and using the other game as an appeal of "if you want more of that thing you really liked in X, try Y".
I don't know why you're so adamant about justifying your role here as a clickbait contrarian in the name of sounding like a "smart" scholar of games. You're new here, but a trap that too many others fall into on Backloggd is talking about games not for what the actual experience of playing them with controller in hand is like, but the weird bents taken against their politics/messages, because mainstream game review journalism won't touch that bugbear.
You don't like Celeste? Understandable. Critique its game design, progression, structure, presentation, music, controls, etc. Attempt to see what it's going for and how and why those who enjoy it enjoy it. Don't just sound like a hateful contrarian spewing unwarranted juvenile insults its way because lots of people got more out of it than you had, and that they didn't give attention to a game most people have never heard of because it lacked a combination of factors that made Celeste rise from the ashes. When I say more of your reviews here should follow the path of the Mario 64 one, I meant that to say it should be personal interpretations of gameplay design and not inflammatory attempts to set off people who get something out of art that you don't. It's a toxic way of analyzing art.
@sunlitsonata totally agree, though tbh I very much doubt this guy will care about what you said. Seeing his other reviews on his site, I dont see him changing how he reviews games
Wanted to tell you your Celeste review was bad, but you disabled the comments for your review on it, so I decided to tell you this here.
日本語でお願いします
@ACoolBlaze5 Don't know why you need a Japanese translation since you seem like you understand English just fine enough, but here it is:
スーパー マリオ 64 の歴史的影響を誇張することはできません。そのアナログ スティック コントロールと調整可能なカメラは、21 世紀のゲームの舞台を設定しました。その 3D プラットフォームには、1960 年代半ばのビートルズのアルバムと同じくらい多くの模倣者がいます。そして、ゲームが始まる前にマリオの大きな顔の特徴を引き伸ばすシュールな招待のようなものはまだありません.
しかし、マリオ 64 を素晴らしいと呼ぶにはまだためらいがあります。プレゼンテーションの大幅な飛躍を認め、3 次元空間での移動のスリルを乗り越えると、死ぬまでプレイしなければならないレベルのアイテムのコレクションを過度に強調するマリオが残ります。マリオ 64 が登場する前は、マリオのゲームに勢いがありました。マリオ 64 は賭けのないスカベンジャー ハントのように感じます。緊急性やプレッシャーはほとんどありません。途中でもう無関心。
そして、マリオの能力の背後にある創造的思考に何が起こったのでしょうか?保守主義は、スーパー マリオ ワールドで始まりました。これは、ヒーローが飛ぶ方法を更新し、ギミックのある恐竜の相棒を与えただけでした。マリオ 64 での最も注目すべき追加は、ジャンプのレパートリーの拡大ですが、このよりアクロバティックなスタイルが、史上最高のリメイクであるドンキーコング 1994 ですでに見られたことを忘れないでください。マリオ 64 の特別な帽子の効果は、もう 1 つの飛行能力と 2 つの受動的能力のうちの 1 つは、マリオが水中で呼吸できないというばかげた回帰規則を修正します。まるで 1990 年代の任天堂が、スーパー マリオ ブラザーズ 3 とヨッシー アイランドでさまざまなゲームを変える力を思いついた後、手を投げたかのようです。
また、マリオ 64 のひいきで一面的な口調も軽蔑します。これは、マリオ 64 の多大な影響が、ポップ ゲームが感情的に達成できるものについてのゲームの世界の記憶をショートさせた事例です。どんなステージでも、マリオは宝くじに当たったように飛び跳ねます。この創造的な決定は、スーパーマリオ オールスターズ内のリメイクで、任天堂が笑顔の雲で小走りに出た軽蔑の音です。マリオ 64 のリリースで、任天堂が視聴者の感情的な反応を信頼しなくなったことは明らかです。今では、人々はかわいい叫び声を聞き、岩の下で星を見つけたことに対する賞賛を浴びることを期待しています。これらの機能がなければ、私たちのしっぽはもはや振れないのでしょうか?
スーパー マリオ 64 の歴史的影響を誇張することはできません。そのアナログ スティック コントロールと調整可能なカメラは、21 世紀のゲームの舞台を設定しました。その 3D プラットフォームには、1960 年代半ばのビートルズのアルバムと同じくらい多くの模倣者がいます。そして、ゲームが始まる前にマリオの大きな顔の特徴を引き伸ばすシュールな招待のようなものはまだありません.
しかし、マリオ 64 を素晴らしいと呼ぶにはまだためらいがあります。プレゼンテーションの大幅な飛躍を認め、3 次元空間での移動のスリルを乗り越えると、死ぬまでプレイしなければならないレベルのアイテムのコレクションを過度に強調するマリオが残ります。マリオ 64 が登場する前は、マリオのゲームに勢いがありました。マリオ 64 は賭けのないスカベンジャー ハントのように感じます。緊急性やプレッシャーはほとんどありません。途中でもう無関心。
そして、マリオの能力の背後にある創造的思考に何が起こったのでしょうか?保守主義は、スーパー マリオ ワールドで始まりました。これは、ヒーローが飛ぶ方法を更新し、ギミックのある恐竜の相棒を与えただけでした。マリオ 64 での最も注目すべき追加は、ジャンプのレパートリーの拡大ですが、このよりアクロバティックなスタイルが、史上最高のリメイクであるドンキーコング 1994 ですでに見られたことを忘れないでください。マリオ 64 の特別な帽子の効果は、もう 1 つの飛行能力と 2 つの受動的能力のうちの 1 つは、マリオが水中で呼吸できないというばかげた回帰規則を修正します。まるで 1990 年代の任天堂が、スーパー マリオ ブラザーズ 3 とヨッシー アイランドでさまざまなゲームを変える力を思いついた後、手を投げたかのようです。
また、マリオ 64 のひいきで一面的な口調も軽蔑します。これは、マリオ 64 の多大な影響が、ポップ ゲームが感情的に達成できるものについてのゲームの世界の記憶をショートさせた事例です。どんなステージでも、マリオは宝くじに当たったように飛び跳ねます。この創造的な決定は、スーパーマリオ オールスターズ内のリメイクで、任天堂が笑顔の雲で小走りに出た軽蔑の音です。マリオ 64 のリリースで、任天堂が視聴者の感情的な反応を信頼しなくなったことは明らかです。今では、人々はかわいい叫び声を聞き、岩の下で星を見つけたことに対する賞賛を浴びることを期待しています。これらの機能がなければ、私たちのしっぽはもはや振れないのでしょうか?
I WAS JOKING
"Don't just sound like a hateful contrarian spewing unwarranted juvenile insults its way because lots of people got more out of it than you had, and that they didn't give attention to a game most people have never heard of because it lacked a combination of factors that made Celeste rise from the ashes."
This is one of the most vague and pointless criticisms of a review I've ever heard. People will always warp your intentions to make you out to be a contrarian if you have a negative take that isn't riddled with qualifiers (oh, but this is just my opinion, don't worry i'm just an idiot so my opinion is harmless!!!, maybe i've never played an indie platformer ever so just disregard what i have to say please! especially if it'll make you feel better!!!)
This is one of the most vague and pointless criticisms of a review I've ever heard. People will always warp your intentions to make you out to be a contrarian if you have a negative take that isn't riddled with qualifiers (oh, but this is just my opinion, don't worry i'm just an idiot so my opinion is harmless!!!, maybe i've never played an indie platformer ever so just disregard what i have to say please! especially if it'll make you feel better!!!)
SunlitSonata
1 year ago
I will acknowledge that perhaps your intention was not to shame people who enjoy the game as much as staying your own opinion. That is possible.
With that being said, DO NOT act like you weren’t being patronizing as hell when you chose the words “you” and “instead” there like it’s a command to people who enjoy the game to get better taste. If I showed that “review”\clickbait pisstake to anyone who adored, liked or even mildly appreciated Celeste (I have several friends and family members who either like it or really connect with Madeline’s plight) they’d think you’re just being a contrarian for the sake of attention. “Unsexy video game prison” is absolute gibberish language that baffles more than anything.
If I like say, Persona 5, and someone tells me “that game is trash play SMT Nocturne instead”, that’s not going to convince me of anything, because the recommendation would feel out of anger, spite and petty dominance rather than genuine appreciation for Nocturne’s own specific special merits or whatever factors Persona 5 itself has over it. The idea of comparison is not bad by itself and I never said it was. Comparing and contrasting strengths and weaknesses of different works tackling similar concepts can be fairly interesting. For instance, comparing The Owl House and Amphibia for their different executions on the same base concept of “teenage girl gets transported to fantasy world” is fairly fascinating.
It’s when you’re using comparison as a spiteful command or a condemnation for not having the “refined” palette of yours that personally irks me to a substantial degree. You’re not creating an understanding between the critic and the reader. And I despise when negative reviews go as low as trying to shame people who enjoy something they do not. It genuinely would have been better if you posted your entire original review from your blog but even then, a 1 star for a game like that feels like review bombing to make a statement and grab attention rather than actually saying it deserves to be grouped with the worst games of all time.
Like, for this specific Mario 64 review I also disagree with most of the negatives, such as the idea that wanting to accomplish multiple tasks in a vast 3D space is some sort of secret evil (they wanted this game to have 3D World’s level to level structure but technical limitations meant they had to limit the map quantity and thus decided to spread objectives throughout) and that Mario should not feel excited when platforming to help you, as a player, feel excited to go on this journey with him (he literally says Thank You So Much for Playing My Game at the end!). But what you’re saying is explained enough to understand the place it comes from. You’re doing it without making petty attacks on fans nearly as hard as with Celeste and I can actually respect that.