I really empathize with the take that everyone just decided it was a masterpiece with no further discussion needed. Because that's exactly how I feel about stuff like Tropical Freeze. To me, SMW just does some cool stuff I find you virtually never see even to this day.(Unless Wonder has anything to say about that, we'll see) Perhaps it's been surpassed in terms of level design complexity and certainly challenge... But without some of its unique aspects it's hard to feel like we haven't regressed in some ways. That extra level of appeal is what's missing for me when it comes to stuff like Rayman Legends. Rayman's boss fights are objectively better by a huge margine, and the level design's great...But I can't say I'd rate SMW as one of my favorites if its world map was just a bunch of long hallways and all its secrets were just obvious fake walls hiding 1 of 700 collectibles. I love how much SMW gets out of its world map, and the ambition behind that forced their hand to design the game in a way that feels like it can grow with me. Other really good 2D platformers don't have a major focus on secrets quite like SMW. Where SMW has so much player freedom you can practically play any world in any order because of how many alternate routes there are...DKC Returns secrets largely just get you concept art.

I like World because it's more than just a set of solid levels. If it was just playing its 96 levels back to back linearly like you would the original SMB, I probably wouldn't give it a 10. The way the game's constructed is very important to me, and I suspect a lot of its fans would say the same. But I also understand if the extra stuff isn't as important to you, something like tropical freeze would be better because that's what it is, a solid set of levels. And that's totally fair, level design is ultimately the most important thing in a platformer. Some would say it's odd to prefer SMW just because I like the world map and secrets better despite DKCTF having more ambitious level design. But to me, Rayman Origins and DKReturns were already just that, nothing but good level design. Doing it again does nothing for me. Feels like everyone decided Legends and Tropical freeze were peak 'cuz the level design's good but to me that's like praising your average Disney movie for having good animation, it's just kind of to be expected. Not trying to put those games down at all but it's nothing that stands out as particularly special for 2D platformers personally.

But yeah figured I'd offer what makes the game special to me, 'cuz generally you're not wrong. The level design is for the most part nothing mindblowing. I'd say average to above average with generally good pacing, but I'm not popping off at how insanely cool most of the levels are on their own. And that's of course big picture, there's a lot of Mario fans that don't branch out a whole lot so SMW's positive features are all the more important to them. 4 games into the NSMB franchise and you can't even bring yoshi outside of his own dedicated levels. And the secrets are merely just finding special coins to unlock an isolated star world that's completely disconnected from the rest of the game. The cape may be OP but tied with the game's core focus on finding secret exits I think it's fine, and it's a lot more fun to use compared to throwaway ideas like the acorn.

@poefred facts, that's why I also love world so much. The secret exists and even secret exists in secret levels was so cool

i dont really disagree but i find it interesting that galaxy is your favorite game, which i'd say very similar (but more negative) things about - standard 3d platformer, powerups with very little significance, levels so trivial you almost need to make an effort to die in them - all seemingly ignored because of the majestic way the game comes across and likely felt to you as a child

...and i ended up here cause i was curious what you'd think of this game after seeing you say something very similar to someone who loved world but found wonder less impressive

@chandler Mario Galaxy's biggest asset isn't its level design, it's its unique gameplay features and its one-of-a-kind presentation-- two things Mario World lacks. You can call Galaxy a lot of things but there's no galaxy (lol) where it could be described as a standard 3D platformer.

i'd wholeheartedly disagree there. sure, galaxy has the planetoid gimmick - but what does that really add? it sacrifices level structure in most cases because you typically can only travel in a straight line, it sacrifices difficulty because you typically cannot fall off of them and regardless of whether or not the concept itself is unique - it's often not really being used to an interesting effect.

like, take those bee levels. sure, the bee ability is cool on paper. but what can you do with it? buzz around in a straight line on the only set path in the stage? what about the ghost levels where you just phase through walls the entire time? i suppose you could make a case for motion gimmicks, but i don't know if they'd be very strong ones considering those are all the worst stages

i mean - if walking on spheres is enough to make galaxy into a one-of-a-kind thing, then i don't really see how mario world doesn't stand out with its distinct aesthetic and puzzle-centric design via the ghost houses. it's the only game in the series i was actively stuck on as a kid cause i had no clue where to go past a point, which is definitely standout in some regard

for the record i do think galaxy has some great stages that play to its strengths - freezeflame is undeniably nice and there's a few bowser stages where you can actually, yknow, die, which play to the whole low-gravity gimmick pretty well. i also think flipswitch galaxy is pretty great for similar reasons. but so many of them are just like, gusty gardens which i'd argue doesn't even feel like a finished or fully designed stage

@chandler I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on Mario Galaxy, but I truly do not think there's a single thing that sets Mario World apart. Its aesthetic is really nothing special; it's quite basic in style and the fact that it's a SNES launch title is very obvious. And having simplistic puzzles is not a defining feature; most newer Mario games have similar ghost houses, and other platformers expand on the puzzle direction further. Nothing here warrants a 10/10.

But regarding Galaxy, I really don't think the fact that you can't fall off planetoids is a con. Difficulty level should not be a factor in a game's quality; there's a reason Kirby has such a large following

i'll ditto your sentiments on world, but i'd just apply them to galaxy as well. i won't bash that point in though because there's no sense in arguing something we fundamentally disagree on. what i will contest though is the kirby comment - while kirby is a pretty braindead series (mostly - i'd say canvas curse has its moments of challenge) the actual staying power in kirby comes from how versatile its design is as a result. it's an easy game, but you can do so much shit and take on so many different abilities. there's also a sort of micro-challenge to getting the power you want and holding onto it, since you can lose it as fast as you earn it

galaxy's design would be more like if kirby had one copy ability per stage. the biggest strength of a 3d platformer is in how you move around... and there's really not a whole lot of interesting movement you can do in galaxy. it's a course-clear game without challenge/experimentation and a 3d-exploration game without exploration

just be like me and love both :trxll: