I'm so fucking tired of people claiming that Warren Spector coined the concept of Immersive Sims, when the man himself will tell you it was Doug Church, all the while these people bash the concept of such a genre even existing. Their arguments are uniformly rooted in prejudicial ignorance every single fucking time. Often making some idiotic remark about how the name is misleading because flight simulators have nothing to do with them, WHEN THE ACTUAL OG IMSIM DEVS MADE FLIGHT SIMS TOO. The entirety of the Looking Glass output were ALWAYS simulations. I'm inclined to believe that the people who were the original developers at the forefront of Simulation focused game development are right in attaching such a denomination in one form or another to their RPG and FPS outputs as well. There's a very simple litmus test you can employ to discern why the bulk of modern first person video games do not deserve to be brought up in conversation by halfwits mistakenly complaining about the genre being "meaningless" because "all games strive to be immersive" (lmao even) or what have you when that's clearly not true. The litmus is whether or not the game is implementing its mechanics via scripted interactions or SIMULATING systems to allow for a rationally comprehensible and predictable game world. Yet somehow people keep bringing up Elder Scrolls, Metroid Prime, et al, in conversation.
I suspect this is an unfortunate effect of general human neurology struggling with comprehending nuance and abstractions, all the while putting much too much emphasis on definitions. Thus the incessant roundabout arguments throughout all of history that often boil down to nothing more than fucking pedantry.
Anyway, as I see it what makes ImSims most consistently identifiable, rather than pedantic slavish insistence of finding individual shared mechanics, is observing how systemically implemented game mechanics end up informing and recontextualizing a game's Level Design.
I feel the need to point this out because I've seen far too many people think that statpoints and skill trees are of chief significance, when they're really just a tool by which developers can choose to allow players influence over their characters. Too few people have played the OG System Shock which is quite lacking in all the ARPG frills that have come to define a particular subset of this criminally misunderstood peak genre of PC gaming. A genre that arguably IS PC gaming.
Oh, yeah, the game. Deus Ex is okay. I made the mistake of playing on Hard and had to suffer through the mediocre gunplay. It was still good though and definitely a must-play. I willfully restarted the Hong Kong level a few times because I wasn't ready to move on before trying several different approaches just for the hell of it. Truly an excellent level.
For all my complaining of pedantry, I wish such widespread flagrant misunderstanding and misapplication of terminology didn't piss me off so much, but I simply can't tolerate besmirchment of PC gaming's most engrossing lineage.
BioShock is a corridor shooter.
I suspect this is an unfortunate effect of general human neurology struggling with comprehending nuance and abstractions, all the while putting much too much emphasis on definitions. Thus the incessant roundabout arguments throughout all of history that often boil down to nothing more than fucking pedantry.
Anyway, as I see it what makes ImSims most consistently identifiable, rather than pedantic slavish insistence of finding individual shared mechanics, is observing how systemically implemented game mechanics end up informing and recontextualizing a game's Level Design.
I feel the need to point this out because I've seen far too many people think that statpoints and skill trees are of chief significance, when they're really just a tool by which developers can choose to allow players influence over their characters. Too few people have played the OG System Shock which is quite lacking in all the ARPG frills that have come to define a particular subset of this criminally misunderstood peak genre of PC gaming. A genre that arguably IS PC gaming.
Oh, yeah, the game. Deus Ex is okay. I made the mistake of playing on Hard and had to suffer through the mediocre gunplay. It was still good though and definitely a must-play. I willfully restarted the Hong Kong level a few times because I wasn't ready to move on before trying several different approaches just for the hell of it. Truly an excellent level.
For all my complaining of pedantry, I wish such widespread flagrant misunderstanding and misapplication of terminology didn't piss me off so much, but I simply can't tolerate besmirchment of PC gaming's most engrossing lineage.
BioShock is a corridor shooter.
20 Comments
@Double_O_0wen
Yeah figured you turn up here too. I pissed myself off trawling the net trying to verify a piece of ImSim trivia that I now don't even remember what it was. Ended up fuming at various shit-takes and felt a need to vent.
Yeah figured you turn up here too. I pissed myself off trawling the net trying to verify a piece of ImSim trivia that I now don't even remember what it was. Ended up fuming at various shit-takes and felt a need to vent.
@Nilichi
That's fair, shit takes need to be disputed when necessary. Plus it doesn't help when the general public consider games like cod as a masterpiece, but ignore imsims because they're too "confusing" or "difficult". I'm not trying to sound pretentious, but like you see it too right?
That's fair, shit takes need to be disputed when necessary. Plus it doesn't help when the general public consider games like cod as a masterpiece, but ignore imsims because they're too "confusing" or "difficult". I'm not trying to sound pretentious, but like you see it too right?
@Double_O_0wen
Oh absolutely. I've a bitter understanding that System Shock and co. were always going to be outshone by their contemporaries simply because they ARE too complicated to ever attain mass appeal.
My first time playing System Shock I was utterly blown away. It felt like a game from the future even after all this time. Yeah the maps look complicated, but I could navigate via landmarks, and finally felt like I was playing a game that wasn't hamstrung by concerns over General Appeal.
Oh absolutely. I've a bitter understanding that System Shock and co. were always going to be outshone by their contemporaries simply because they ARE too complicated to ever attain mass appeal.
My first time playing System Shock I was utterly blown away. It felt like a game from the future even after all this time. Yeah the maps look complicated, but I could navigate via landmarks, and finally felt like I was playing a game that wasn't hamstrung by concerns over General Appeal.
I just realized why I get so impassioned about ImSims. Considering Ultima Underworld, they are the ORIGINAL 3D video games.
Carmack even alleges he started work on his 3D render after seeing Underworld at a trade show. People by and large have no fucking idea that these are The Core of the entire modern medium.
Carmack even alleges he started work on his 3D render after seeing Underworld at a trade show. People by and large have no fucking idea that these are The Core of the entire modern medium.
@Nilichi
Exactly! I'll be honest and say that I prefer the Nightdive remake, but either way my first playthrough of System Shock felt like playing Super Metroid for the first time as a kid. The sense of exploration and danger around every corner, coupled with the gorgeous look of Citadel Station and Shodan taunting you in the background still makes it a fantastic experience to this day
Exactly! I'll be honest and say that I prefer the Nightdive remake, but either way my first playthrough of System Shock felt like playing Super Metroid for the first time as a kid. The sense of exploration and danger around every corner, coupled with the gorgeous look of Citadel Station and Shodan taunting you in the background still makes it a fantastic experience to this day
@Double_o_0wen
I do rather enjoy the Nightdive Remake, but so many little things about it irritate me. I wish Maintenance was dark. I wish cyberspace wasn't so dull. The final boss is somehow even worse than before. Stephen Kick is a big dumb and I hate his excuse for not including an adaptive soundtrack, which is one of the OG's super forward thinking definitive features. They're a bunch of cowards too for deciding against implementing Sensaround. The new inventory is far more constrained than that of the original, though this is arguably a sidegrade in terms of game quality.
Otherwise I genuinely think it's a standout example of how video games should look aesthetically. I look forward to replaying it after they finally patch the broken achievements and rework Shodan's encounter.
It amuses me everytime I see people wrongly think Prey got it's recycling from System Shock now, rather than the other way around.
I do rather enjoy the Nightdive Remake, but so many little things about it irritate me. I wish Maintenance was dark. I wish cyberspace wasn't so dull. The final boss is somehow even worse than before. Stephen Kick is a big dumb and I hate his excuse for not including an adaptive soundtrack, which is one of the OG's super forward thinking definitive features. They're a bunch of cowards too for deciding against implementing Sensaround. The new inventory is far more constrained than that of the original, though this is arguably a sidegrade in terms of game quality.
Otherwise I genuinely think it's a standout example of how video games should look aesthetically. I look forward to replaying it after they finally patch the broken achievements and rework Shodan's encounter.
It amuses me everytime I see people wrongly think Prey got it's recycling from System Shock now, rather than the other way around.
@Nilichi
Yeah that's pretty funny. I mean I love the recycle system so I'm not upset with the blatant copying lol. Hey do you have a steam account? I feel like we'd get along well based on your thoughts on imsims lol
Yeah that's pretty funny. I mean I love the recycle system so I'm not upset with the blatant copying lol. Hey do you have a steam account? I feel like we'd get along well based on your thoughts on imsims lol
@Double_O_0wen
I'm usually identifiable as Nilichi on gaming related services. If I'm not online on Steam, I've only forgotten to log in because I'm using GOG.
I'm usually identifiable as Nilichi on gaming related services. If I'm not online on Steam, I've only forgotten to log in because I'm using GOG.
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Finally, someone puts respect on Doug Church's name. Great post!
@MiraMiraOTW
The more I read up on the accomplishments and influence of the Looking Glass and id Software developers, the more my awe at how this small group of people have arguably warped the course of human history. I'm quite serious about Looking Glass's legacy being the beating heart of the entirety of modern video games.
The more I read up on the accomplishments and influence of the Looking Glass and id Software developers, the more my awe at how this small group of people have arguably warped the course of human history. I'm quite serious about Looking Glass's legacy being the beating heart of the entirety of modern video games.
@Nilichi Amen. Even in the 00s/early 10s I was banging that drum and it's only gotten more intense as time goes on.
I like the first part of this a lot. I think a lot of people try to boil it down to either “you can do stuff in more than one way” or “you can do a lot of stuff,” which has always struck me as ironically overcomplicating it and probably how you get games like TES, Hitman or Metroid Prime etc. being lumped in with real examples that you can feel the shared DNA between if you play them back to back.
@ProudLittleSeal
I'm leaning more and more to towards the idea that Immersive Simulation is a design philosophy that ends up binding together many disparate mechanics, rather than an easily definable descriptive set of specific mechanics as how many other genres can be easily categorized. I normally prefer to group games by mechanical overlap, but other genres like Horror show that sometimes theme and pacing are just as categorize-able as concrete mechanical implementations.
I'll gladly group the Primes, Elder Scrolls, et al, under an umbrella of Immersive Games. But so many of their mechanics have a paint-by-numbers kind of implementation that they don't end up tickling my brainstem the way an LGS or Arkane game does. I've yet to play a Hitman title myself, but from what I've seen they definitely seem ImSim adjacent. Being so highly systems driven and providing plenty of emergent gameplay. On a related note; I'm currently working through doekuramori's The Citadel. It's another neat example of a non-ImSim that has some shared convergent design from how doekuramori has chosen to more closely emulate IRL firearm mechanics. It's still very arcadey, but there's a clear simulationist mindset guiding the decision to implement bullet-drop, simple magazine management, diegetic UI, and so on. I'd love to see him attempt to make a shock-like.
I'm leaning more and more to towards the idea that Immersive Simulation is a design philosophy that ends up binding together many disparate mechanics, rather than an easily definable descriptive set of specific mechanics as how many other genres can be easily categorized. I normally prefer to group games by mechanical overlap, but other genres like Horror show that sometimes theme and pacing are just as categorize-able as concrete mechanical implementations.
I'll gladly group the Primes, Elder Scrolls, et al, under an umbrella of Immersive Games. But so many of their mechanics have a paint-by-numbers kind of implementation that they don't end up tickling my brainstem the way an LGS or Arkane game does. I've yet to play a Hitman title myself, but from what I've seen they definitely seem ImSim adjacent. Being so highly systems driven and providing plenty of emergent gameplay. On a related note; I'm currently working through doekuramori's The Citadel. It's another neat example of a non-ImSim that has some shared convergent design from how doekuramori has chosen to more closely emulate IRL firearm mechanics. It's still very arcadey, but there's a clear simulationist mindset guiding the decision to implement bullet-drop, simple magazine management, diegetic UI, and so on. I'd love to see him attempt to make a shock-like.
Looking Glass Studios themselves gave the actual definition of the type of game Ultima Underworld/Thief/System Shock were even back in 1997.
https://files.catbox.moe/dgqdue.png
Also: https://files.catbox.moe/mzdwgb.png
https://files.catbox.moe/dgqdue.png
Also: https://files.catbox.moe/mzdwgb.png
@kiilaR
Thank you! I actually had those write ups bouncing around my mind while I was fuming but didn't have a link on hand.
Though they weren't outright calling the games Immersive Sims yet, it is important for people to understand that LGS always considered their games to be Sims of "Immersive Realities" of some sort.
Now if I could just find the interview where Spector insists that Doug Church coined the term Immersive Simulation first. Regardless there's some more interesting stories in these interviews.
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/system-shock-the-oral-history-of-a-forward-thinking-pc-classic
https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/my-40-years-in-the-game-industry
Thank you! I actually had those write ups bouncing around my mind while I was fuming but didn't have a link on hand.
Though they weren't outright calling the games Immersive Sims yet, it is important for people to understand that LGS always considered their games to be Sims of "Immersive Realities" of some sort.
Now if I could just find the interview where Spector insists that Doug Church coined the term Immersive Simulation first. Regardless there's some more interesting stories in these interviews.
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/system-shock-the-oral-history-of-a-forward-thinking-pc-classic
https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/my-40-years-in-the-game-industry
@Nilichi
>find the interview where Spector insists that Doug Church coined the term Immersive Simulation first
https://www.pcgamer.com/the-designers-of-dishonored-bioshock-2-and-deus-ex-swap-stories-about-making-pcs-most-complex-games/3/
Warren: I think Doug Church was the one who came up with that, isn't he? He's the first person I ever heard use it.
This one?
>find the interview where Spector insists that Doug Church coined the term Immersive Simulation first
https://www.pcgamer.com/the-designers-of-dishonored-bioshock-2-and-deus-ex-swap-stories-about-making-pcs-most-complex-games/3/
Warren: I think Doug Church was the one who came up with that, isn't he? He's the first person I ever heard use it.
This one?
Noted The Citadel thanks, hadn't heard of that one before.
A very insightful overview into Immersive Sims honest to god. A few things I wanna say though (not to say you are wrong or anything, very far from it).
1 - Probably the main reason why people generally attribute the creation of the term to Spector is probably because he was one of the main heads behind System Shock 1 and Deus Ex. In fact it's kind of ironic you mention the fact many people attribute the creation of ImSims to him when the man himself has gone on record saying "There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,".
2 - I think the reason so many people mistakenly include games like The Elder Scrolls into the mix is because some elements from Immersive Sims ended up in games that otherwise wouldn't (quite) fit this label like Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines, and since in that game you can tackle objectives in more ways than one, people think it immediately qualifies as a Immersive Sim (when it really isn't just that like ProudLittleSeal said).
Done.
1 - Probably the main reason why people generally attribute the creation of the term to Spector is probably because he was one of the main heads behind System Shock 1 and Deus Ex. In fact it's kind of ironic you mention the fact many people attribute the creation of ImSims to him when the man himself has gone on record saying "There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,".
2 - I think the reason so many people mistakenly include games like The Elder Scrolls into the mix is because some elements from Immersive Sims ended up in games that otherwise wouldn't (quite) fit this label like Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines, and since in that game you can tackle objectives in more ways than one, people think it immediately qualifies as a Immersive Sim (when it really isn't just that like ProudLittleSeal said).
Done.
@Rogueliker
When it comes to the Elder Scrolls, I struggle to think of a single systemically implemented game mechanic that isn't the series' anemic stealth or older titles spell crafting. Morrowind probably comes closest to the design ethos of providing players with a dilemma and a toolset and just saying "Go!".
They do get points for the pseduo-diegetic books though. I've always liked how Elder Scrolls implements its literature. Actually one of the best longstanding recurring features to the series.
There's a particular part of my brainstem that has never wiggled playing an Elder Scrolls title, that often wiggles when playing an ImSim though. It's the part that let's me perform logical inferences about how a world works to come to a solution. Arx Fatalis' magic system is a stellar example here. It's the first time I actually felt like I LEARNED magic on my own. As Ultima Underworld has a similar system I'm looking forward to exploring its systems in turn.
When it comes to the Elder Scrolls, I struggle to think of a single systemically implemented game mechanic that isn't the series' anemic stealth or older titles spell crafting. Morrowind probably comes closest to the design ethos of providing players with a dilemma and a toolset and just saying "Go!".
They do get points for the pseduo-diegetic books though. I've always liked how Elder Scrolls implements its literature. Actually one of the best longstanding recurring features to the series.
There's a particular part of my brainstem that has never wiggled playing an Elder Scrolls title, that often wiggles when playing an ImSim though. It's the part that let's me perform logical inferences about how a world works to come to a solution. Arx Fatalis' magic system is a stellar example here. It's the first time I actually felt like I LEARNED magic on my own. As Ultima Underworld has a similar system I'm looking forward to exploring its systems in turn.
Double_O_0wen
26 days ago