I am called to revere Elden Ring out of spite. I once heard someone I no longer speak to for various reasons say, upon seeing a then new trailer, that they wish FromSoft would making something interesting like King’s Field again instead of this. Now, I was playing the King’s Field games for the first time when they said that, and I happen to love those games a lot, and I certainly want them to make another one or something like it, even though they never will because the games industry is full of cowards. But I also happened to know that this person had never played King’s Field, and were probably only saying it out of a smug sense of superiority. And this made me angry.
Yes, yes, the familiar gang is here. Yet another lowly warrior usurps the eternal cycle. The fallen order, the god-kings, corruption, the moon, the flame. Invasions, summons, messages, bloodstains. Tragic sidequests, Patches is there, and multiple endings. Magic is blue, holiness is yellow. You can parry and backstab enemies. You upgrade your weapons to scale with your stats. You dodge roll and stagger. These are familiar. They are played out, to a degree. And yes, they are not exciting in that old way. But I don’t really care, because I’m a “fan of the genre”. I am enthusiastic about the new things that come from this company, and the genre they’ve inadvertently spawned, and I’m always ready for innovation. But that doesn’t preclude me from finding joy in the familiar. Because it was never the uniqueness that mattered most.
There’s this kind of jealousy surrounding the Souls series. The fans (myself included) view them as special, unique, and precious gems. When something besmirches their name, it is a disgrace, because there is something transcendent about these games that we hold sacred. But as the series has become a prototype, a whole genre sprouting from its seedbed, the things that made a game like Dark Souls special have become no longer so special. How many games can we find that are trying to be exactly like it? Those qualities, whether it be difficulty, inscrutability, atmosphere, even specific mechanics, they’re not special anymore. How quaint does Super Metroid feel now? How cliche is The Shining now? Are The Beatles run of the mill? Is Seinfeld funny anymore? It’s like the old joke: “I don’t get the appeal of Hamlet. It’s just a bunch of famous saying strung together.”
It becomes difficult to vindicate why these games are good. So, we get jealous. We get protective. “No, you see, these games are special. How else could I love them so much if they weren’t? They are doing something different. They are beautiful in a way only I can understand.” Everyone thinks they are the sole prophet of Dark Souls liking, and that everyone else is some misguided mystic. I do, too. But I know I’m fooling myself. I know these games are mortal.
See, I’m not sure these games were ever that special to begin with. I remember, years ago, sitting on a couch playing Demon's Souls, and wondering out loud how they made this game, how they reached something so specific. And he said to me that "it had to have come from someone with a vision". As years go on, I find that statement less and less true. They were and are unique, sure. But they didn’t come from nowhere, sprouting from Miyazaki’s forehead like Athena. They were made by people in a company making a software product. Elden Ring was building off of Dark Souls, which was building off of Demon’s Souls, which was building off of King’s Field, which was probably building off of Ultima Underworld or something, and yadda yadda. Iteration is underrated. I think what ends up getting underrecognized, ironically, is that these are good video games. It’s not because they’re special. They haven’t unlocked a secret to games that no one else can know. These games don’t have to be special to be good. They can just be good. Which they are.
Anyway. I liked Elden Ring. I thought it was fun. I thought it was cool. I liked exploring its world. I liked crawling through its dungeons. I liked fighting bosses. That’s enough for me. And so you might ask, “Is Elden Ring even that special?” And I’m going to say, “Who cares?”
Yes, yes, the familiar gang is here. Yet another lowly warrior usurps the eternal cycle. The fallen order, the god-kings, corruption, the moon, the flame. Invasions, summons, messages, bloodstains. Tragic sidequests, Patches is there, and multiple endings. Magic is blue, holiness is yellow. You can parry and backstab enemies. You upgrade your weapons to scale with your stats. You dodge roll and stagger. These are familiar. They are played out, to a degree. And yes, they are not exciting in that old way. But I don’t really care, because I’m a “fan of the genre”. I am enthusiastic about the new things that come from this company, and the genre they’ve inadvertently spawned, and I’m always ready for innovation. But that doesn’t preclude me from finding joy in the familiar. Because it was never the uniqueness that mattered most.
There’s this kind of jealousy surrounding the Souls series. The fans (myself included) view them as special, unique, and precious gems. When something besmirches their name, it is a disgrace, because there is something transcendent about these games that we hold sacred. But as the series has become a prototype, a whole genre sprouting from its seedbed, the things that made a game like Dark Souls special have become no longer so special. How many games can we find that are trying to be exactly like it? Those qualities, whether it be difficulty, inscrutability, atmosphere, even specific mechanics, they’re not special anymore. How quaint does Super Metroid feel now? How cliche is The Shining now? Are The Beatles run of the mill? Is Seinfeld funny anymore? It’s like the old joke: “I don’t get the appeal of Hamlet. It’s just a bunch of famous saying strung together.”
It becomes difficult to vindicate why these games are good. So, we get jealous. We get protective. “No, you see, these games are special. How else could I love them so much if they weren’t? They are doing something different. They are beautiful in a way only I can understand.” Everyone thinks they are the sole prophet of Dark Souls liking, and that everyone else is some misguided mystic. I do, too. But I know I’m fooling myself. I know these games are mortal.
See, I’m not sure these games were ever that special to begin with. I remember, years ago, sitting on a couch playing Demon's Souls, and wondering out loud how they made this game, how they reached something so specific. And he said to me that "it had to have come from someone with a vision". As years go on, I find that statement less and less true. They were and are unique, sure. But they didn’t come from nowhere, sprouting from Miyazaki’s forehead like Athena. They were made by people in a company making a software product. Elden Ring was building off of Dark Souls, which was building off of Demon’s Souls, which was building off of King’s Field, which was probably building off of Ultima Underworld or something, and yadda yadda. Iteration is underrated. I think what ends up getting underrecognized, ironically, is that these are good video games. It’s not because they’re special. They haven’t unlocked a secret to games that no one else can know. These games don’t have to be special to be good. They can just be good. Which they are.
Anyway. I liked Elden Ring. I thought it was fun. I thought it was cool. I liked exploring its world. I liked crawling through its dungeons. I liked fighting bosses. That’s enough for me. And so you might ask, “Is Elden Ring even that special?” And I’m going to say, “Who cares?”
16 Comments
when the armored core 10 fan complains about the 7th dark souls for reusing ideas.
i will offer this: seinfeld, the show, continues to be hilarious. seinfeld, himself? never really was all that funny.
which has nothing to do with any of this.
i was thinking about exactly what you've chosen to articulate in this review just this morning. why is elden ring still the best game, to me, that i've played all year? i've played and am playing some very, very good games this year. and yet elden ring stands apart. it's true, as you say, that they didn't come from nowhere. just look up quelaag on youtube if you want to learn about everything that they came from. and iteration is indeed a factor... but the specifics of these games' approach to online multiplayer ever since demon's souls remains unique despite a few attempts to do similar. this isn't the only reason i think their games all continue to be special... but "who cares" is also completely valid.
my feeling, lately, about elden ring and a number of other games, is that there's just a trend in the 'hardcore' video game enjoyer scene to be very negative about certain games. people latch onto the negativity because they fear they won't be seen as cool unless they agree: yes, i am cooler than this. i'm 42 years old, so maybe it's just me getting older and even saying so will make it easy for others to dismiss my feelings about particular games because i'm a 'boomer' (even though i'm not: my parents were boomers, maybe, and i was born at the tail end of gen x or whatever)... but i dunno. i think that if people really can't boot up games like elden ring, cyberpunk 2077, kane & lynch 2: dog days, or whatever, and enjoy them thoroughly for what they have to offer, then they've kinda lost the plot.
which has nothing to do with any of this.
i was thinking about exactly what you've chosen to articulate in this review just this morning. why is elden ring still the best game, to me, that i've played all year? i've played and am playing some very, very good games this year. and yet elden ring stands apart. it's true, as you say, that they didn't come from nowhere. just look up quelaag on youtube if you want to learn about everything that they came from. and iteration is indeed a factor... but the specifics of these games' approach to online multiplayer ever since demon's souls remains unique despite a few attempts to do similar. this isn't the only reason i think their games all continue to be special... but "who cares" is also completely valid.
my feeling, lately, about elden ring and a number of other games, is that there's just a trend in the 'hardcore' video game enjoyer scene to be very negative about certain games. people latch onto the negativity because they fear they won't be seen as cool unless they agree: yes, i am cooler than this. i'm 42 years old, so maybe it's just me getting older and even saying so will make it easy for others to dismiss my feelings about particular games because i'm a 'boomer' (even though i'm not: my parents were boomers, maybe, and i was born at the tail end of gen x or whatever)... but i dunno. i think that if people really can't boot up games like elden ring, cyberpunk 2077, kane & lynch 2: dog days, or whatever, and enjoy them thoroughly for what they have to offer, then they've kinda lost the plot.
@Herbert
Totally -- I almost mentioned Evergrace in here but I worried it might be a stretch, but it was their first 3rd person dungeon crawler. Iteration has been what made a lot of these games great
@Dratnerd
listen we all want Armored Core 6 or whatever, but if youre gonna tell me you havent compared the mineral composition of two different codpieces for your mech in a game before youre lying to yourself
@zenoslime
I bring up Seinfeld because of the TV Tropes page: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeinfeldIsUnfunny . Though I agree: I think the show itself is funnier than his stand-up, though I do think his routines were and are at the very least well crafted. But comedy is deeply subjective of course. It's hard to ignore the influence of the show and his comedy, though.
But yeah, to be clear, I do think that Elden Ring and all these FromSoft games are doing unique things! Their multiplayer as you mentioned is especially singular. (I don't know if they're transcendentally unique, but...) My main assertion is that these games would be good even if they weren't unique, which I stand by. I also am more than open to people not liking Elden Ring (there are some good reviews on this site that express the antithesis of my argument) but I do want to push back on the hardcore mindset you're describing, where no joy can be permitted and only smugness remains.
Totally -- I almost mentioned Evergrace in here but I worried it might be a stretch, but it was their first 3rd person dungeon crawler. Iteration has been what made a lot of these games great
@Dratnerd
listen we all want Armored Core 6 or whatever, but if youre gonna tell me you havent compared the mineral composition of two different codpieces for your mech in a game before youre lying to yourself
@zenoslime
I bring up Seinfeld because of the TV Tropes page: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeinfeldIsUnfunny . Though I agree: I think the show itself is funnier than his stand-up, though I do think his routines were and are at the very least well crafted. But comedy is deeply subjective of course. It's hard to ignore the influence of the show and his comedy, though.
But yeah, to be clear, I do think that Elden Ring and all these FromSoft games are doing unique things! Their multiplayer as you mentioned is especially singular. (I don't know if they're transcendentally unique, but...) My main assertion is that these games would be good even if they weren't unique, which I stand by. I also am more than open to people not liking Elden Ring (there are some good reviews on this site that express the antithesis of my argument) but I do want to push back on the hardcore mindset you're describing, where no joy can be permitted and only smugness remains.
I really like this piece, I think it really successfully illustrates a part of the appeal of Elden Ring that was lost on me, as someone exhausted with this specific oeuvre and hoping for something a bit more novel. I definitely place a lot of value on a work surprising me but I think it's easy to forget just how much our enthusiasm for a work can be fueled and defined by it appealing to aesthetic and formal sensibilities we hold dear.
@zenoslime all due respect but i find this comment to be a little alarming. if you're entering into the conversation with a perspective that people who feel differently from you, rather than valuing different things or seeing different things in a work than you, are actually Bad Actors who don't actually feel earnestly feel the way they express they do and are in fact simply being contrarian out of nebulous sinister reasons, then you're approaching the conversation in such astonishing bad faith that there really cannot be a conversation. Maybe I'm misinterpreting, and if so I apologize, but saying that if someone doesn't "thoroughly enjoy" Cyberpunk 2077 then they've "lost the plot", or that people being critical about Elden Ring "latch onto the negativity because they fear they don't be seen as cool unless agree (with the negativity)" feels, on the face of it, like such a shockingly unreasonable stance to take that I struggle to believe that it's what is been expressed here.
@zenoslime all due respect but i find this comment to be a little alarming. if you're entering into the conversation with a perspective that people who feel differently from you, rather than valuing different things or seeing different things in a work than you, are actually Bad Actors who don't actually feel earnestly feel the way they express they do and are in fact simply being contrarian out of nebulous sinister reasons, then you're approaching the conversation in such astonishing bad faith that there really cannot be a conversation. Maybe I'm misinterpreting, and if so I apologize, but saying that if someone doesn't "thoroughly enjoy" Cyberpunk 2077 then they've "lost the plot", or that people being critical about Elden Ring "latch onto the negativity because they fear they don't be seen as cool unless agree (with the negativity)" feels, on the face of it, like such a shockingly unreasonable stance to take that I struggle to believe that it's what is been expressed here.
Re: the first bit, I read (at least enough of) your review, and was on my mind when I was writing this, as well as someone else's which had a similar point, and I definitely don't want anyone to think I was coming after them for it. I also really value novelty and surprise; it's one of my favorite things in art, to be surprised. It's true that I would probably enjoy Elden Ring more if it was more ambitious, more experimental, and more surprising. It often occured to my when I was playing it that I wished it was willing to take more risks. But I also still had fun playing it!
Re: the thing zenoslime, I can't speaking for them I totally get your pushback but I read what they were saying more in reference to a general negative attitude about the Cool Hip Thing and less to do with Whether Or Not The Thing Is Bad; CDPR can go do one, and that game has issues, but there is a derision towards even the thought of playing it from certain people that feels a little condescending.
As an example, one of my least favorite reviews of all time is Tevis Thompson's drabble on Destiny, where he compares enjoying the game to sitting in the cave in Plato's allegory, unable to imagine the sun. It's so self-important and supercilious. (Thompson has sort of disappeared, which is probably for the best; I didn't enjoy his writing but it also seemed to be pretty bad for his wellbeing.) He constantly complained about games not being hard enough (like Zelda needs to be for hardcores)
and how the games media is filled with cowards like checks notes Austin Walker who he called "servile", all because they won't write reviews praising checks notes again... Fortnite?? What?? Oops, this turned into a dunk session. Anyway, coincidentally, he said Dark Souls 3 was one of the worst games he played in 2016, saying: "A singular series completes its devolution into typical game franchise. Hollow, self-obsessed, tragic." He more or less made his career out of the exact thing that I'm criticizing: it can't just be fun, it has to be special.
Regardless, again, I can't speak for zenoslime, but for me the key is that these things sometimes get criticized for being "basic". "Oh, what, you like Breath of the Wild? You like nu-metal? You like the mid-priced franchise restaurant? Pleb..." That's more the vibe I'm worried about. I don't want to dunk on people for liking games like Cyberpunk 2077, and hell, I bet I would enjoy it too if I played it. That's very different from being very careful to be critical of developers and of the games they make. That's an essential attitude. I think they can coexist. idk i sleepy
Re: the thing zenoslime, I can't speaking for them I totally get your pushback but I read what they were saying more in reference to a general negative attitude about the Cool Hip Thing and less to do with Whether Or Not The Thing Is Bad; CDPR can go do one, and that game has issues, but there is a derision towards even the thought of playing it from certain people that feels a little condescending.
As an example, one of my least favorite reviews of all time is Tevis Thompson's drabble on Destiny, where he compares enjoying the game to sitting in the cave in Plato's allegory, unable to imagine the sun. It's so self-important and supercilious. (Thompson has sort of disappeared, which is probably for the best; I didn't enjoy his writing but it also seemed to be pretty bad for his wellbeing.) He constantly complained about games not being hard enough (like Zelda needs to be for hardcores)
and how the games media is filled with cowards like checks notes Austin Walker who he called "servile", all because they won't write reviews praising checks notes again... Fortnite?? What?? Oops, this turned into a dunk session. Anyway, coincidentally, he said Dark Souls 3 was one of the worst games he played in 2016, saying: "A singular series completes its devolution into typical game franchise. Hollow, self-obsessed, tragic." He more or less made his career out of the exact thing that I'm criticizing: it can't just be fun, it has to be special.
Regardless, again, I can't speak for zenoslime, but for me the key is that these things sometimes get criticized for being "basic". "Oh, what, you like Breath of the Wild? You like nu-metal? You like the mid-priced franchise restaurant? Pleb..." That's more the vibe I'm worried about. I don't want to dunk on people for liking games like Cyberpunk 2077, and hell, I bet I would enjoy it too if I played it. That's very different from being very careful to be critical of developers and of the games they make. That's an essential attitude. I think they can coexist. idk i sleepy
I think the best praise I can give this is that I feel like I relate to it despite having actively started hating From games, not because I care about video games being new or surprising since I actively negatively value that, but because they just were never aiming to being something I liked and they have the worst fanbase on earth. But I'm going to buy like, the new freakin' Pokemon. I mostly just hate consumption as a form of like, social worth and whenever anyone says "You HAVE to read/play/whatever this RIGHT NOW" I always avoid the thing out of sheer spite. That goes in the other direction but same vibe you know
i find woodaba's comment suggesting "it's not the overly negative bandwagoners acting in bad faith, it's you" hilarious, so i think i'll abstain from further commentary on that in this particular space. alarming! lol, good grief.
Please dont start a flame war here yall, i think Woodaba's concern is legitimate given 2077 being mentioned can sound like its excusing transphobia
@MeowPewterMeow
Make no mistake that Souls fans are like the Jojos fans of games. Fandom is hell
Make no mistake that Souls fans are like the Jojos fans of games. Fandom is hell
i think being concerned about transphobia and other forms of bigotry in games is always valid and crucial, of course. i just don't think, personally, that cyberpunk 2077 is particularly egregious in this regard (though i won't defend the ugliness of their social media marketing leading up to the game's release) as it's irreverent toward sex and gender from every angle and there is some pro-trans representation in the game. when i say that i wish certain games could be enjoyed 'thoroughly' i don't mean at the dispensing of any and all criticism - i just mean i wish that the negativity weren't so pervasive and all-consuming. i don't think that i (a nonbinary individual) or my trans friends who like the game should be made to feel ashamed, and a lot of the time the way people talk about this game and others does feel like it comes with that intent.
anyhow, that's all getting perhaps a bit out of the scope of this discussion wrt elden ring. i love elden ring and simply feel it's another triumph for fromsoft, but i don't think it's beyond critique. nothing is.
anyhow, that's all getting perhaps a bit out of the scope of this discussion wrt elden ring. i love elden ring and simply feel it's another triumph for fromsoft, but i don't think it's beyond critique. nothing is.
@zenoslime i think the way you explained things here is entirely reasonable and understandable. i hope you can understand why i might have taken it a different way based on how it was originally worded, as if it was a personal moral/mental failing for an individual person to not enjoy Elden Ring or Cyberpunk 2077 or Kane and Lynch or what have you (" i think that if people really can't boot up games like elden ring, cyberpunk 2077, kane & lynch 2: dog days, or whatever, and enjoy them thoroughly for what they have to offer, then they've kinda lost the plot.") and why i felt that that was a troubling tack to take. i'd also like to clarify that i didn't defend "overly negative bandwagoners" as acting in good faith, but rather was aiming to express my disbelief at what i felt was an alarming equivalency being drawn between that behavior and people who simply found themselves not enjoying Elden Ring or Cyberpunk etc. with this further clarification i can now see that that wasn't really what you were trying to say and i apologize for the misinterpretation, though again i hope you can see why i might have thought that based on how it was initially worded.
tried to carefully word this in as considerate a manner as possible because i know how horrible it is to have a flame war ignite in one's comments and that's the last thing i want to happen, but i know i struggle with wording things right so please accept this pre-emptive apology in case i have stepped on any toes inadvertently!
@vehemently just wanted to clarify also that nothing here felt like you were coming at me or anyone else, i wasn't even thinking of it in relation to my own piece on the game (which i don't really remember too strongly at this point)!
tried to carefully word this in as considerate a manner as possible because i know how horrible it is to have a flame war ignite in one's comments and that's the last thing i want to happen, but i know i struggle with wording things right so please accept this pre-emptive apology in case i have stepped on any toes inadvertently!
@vehemently just wanted to clarify also that nothing here felt like you were coming at me or anyone else, i wasn't even thinking of it in relation to my own piece on the game (which i don't really remember too strongly at this point)!
i appreciate the considerate response, woodaba, and i initially reacted as i did because i felt you were trying to scold, which... well, anyway. i would like to revise my "lost the plot" comment somewhat: i think i've clarified by now enough to show that i don't reject all criticism or bad feelings about these games we've mentioned... just that i do feel there is a lot of myopic negativity that tends to cloud more thoughtful discussion. i'm not saying that this applies to all criticism, of course, and i hope i'm being clearer about that now.
I generally agree with your mentality, though I don't share your conclusion. I won't lie and say I'm not tired of the Souls tropes at this point, especially when they get shoehorned into places they don't belong (Team Ninja please.......) but ultimately the final product, the thing-in-itself, is what matters most to me. Sadly I think ER has a lot of major problems that harm it as an experience, especially on replays.
> King's Field
Played some of the second one ("King's Field" in US) and really enjoyed it, even there the exploration and dreamlike atmosphere is strong.
> "But as the series has become a prototype, a whole genre sprouting from its seedbed, the things that made a game like Dark Souls special have become no longer so special. How many games can we find that are trying to be exactly like it? Those qualities, whether it be difficulty, inscrutability, atmosphere, even specific mechanics, they’re not special anymore. How quaint does Super Metroid feel now?"
I actually don't agree that many things that make masterpiece games great have really been emulated, even by their direct sequels. DS1's combo of a highly interconnected world and tight layered 3rd person dungeon design hasn't really been approached by other games as far as I know. Super Metroid is an even stronger example. The skillful and distinctly alien movement, as well as the naturalistic environment design that allows for tons of creative, "unintended" approaches is essentially unrivaled. Surely the obvious, structural things (DS1: slower 1v1 stamina combat, bonfires/souls/bloodstains/etc. SM: open map with ability-locked doors, movement upgrade powerups) are copied, but the core beneath remains untouched.
>iteration
It's invaluable, provided you build on your foundations and don't just rest on them. “Immature artists imitate. Mature artists steal” and all that.
> King's Field
Played some of the second one ("King's Field" in US) and really enjoyed it, even there the exploration and dreamlike atmosphere is strong.
> "But as the series has become a prototype, a whole genre sprouting from its seedbed, the things that made a game like Dark Souls special have become no longer so special. How many games can we find that are trying to be exactly like it? Those qualities, whether it be difficulty, inscrutability, atmosphere, even specific mechanics, they’re not special anymore. How quaint does Super Metroid feel now?"
I actually don't agree that many things that make masterpiece games great have really been emulated, even by their direct sequels. DS1's combo of a highly interconnected world and tight layered 3rd person dungeon design hasn't really been approached by other games as far as I know. Super Metroid is an even stronger example. The skillful and distinctly alien movement, as well as the naturalistic environment design that allows for tons of creative, "unintended" approaches is essentially unrivaled. Surely the obvious, structural things (DS1: slower 1v1 stamina combat, bonfires/souls/bloodstains/etc. SM: open map with ability-locked doors, movement upgrade powerups) are copied, but the core beneath remains untouched.
>iteration
It's invaluable, provided you build on your foundations and don't just rest on them. “Immature artists imitate. Mature artists steal” and all that.
modern fromsoft tastes real good when u dont got a mfer in your ear telling you it's "just more souls"
I think the thing I tend to hold in contention with Soulslikes vs Souls games is the.... nuance? the Souls games have. Its like, the execution thats been hard to replicate more than any single individual element. This is something typically not included in negative assessments against modern Fromsoft games and is usually the thing I might, like, defend or argue about. In some ways I wish it was the 'artistry' of the game that people would copy, not its actual mechanics.
Herbert
1 year ago