The tactics here are actually not too bad when it’s not complete brute force. But now it’s somehow 1000x more misogynistic than the rance games are.
20 Comments
I'm really not sure what part of that is even slightly confusing to you? Like it brings the whole thing from old kingdom to modern high school, dropping the mask of it being 'timely' and has the first act start with explicit rape
i misread that as big bang theory and thought 'bazinga'
Don't really get how that's misogynistic. A lot of eroge have their antagonists rape heroines. Why are you playing an eroge if you don't like seeing stuff like that in the first place? Besides the gals get plenty of chances to shine and be just as badass as the guys are. If anything I'd say that something like FSN has a more misogynistic message than most of AliceSoft's games, and even that I wouldn't get bothered by.
This is coming from a girl herself btw. I have literally never been offended by an AliceSoft game, and I've played a ton of them.
This is coming from a girl herself btw. I have literally never been offended by an AliceSoft game, and I've played a ton of them.
Shirou’s misogyny is a setup for him getting clowned on and beaten up and the story far from ends on any sort of misogynistic note there where as BBA won’t move a single bit from its toxic masculinity stance and while girls get their token effort to “shine as much as the guys do” it doesn’t really change how they’re framed as effectively tools and waifus for the MC.
Also bold of you saying that as if it applies to all eroge lol. I have eroge I like on my Played and I’d be more than happy to give examples where this isn’t a problem?? Maybe you should try to meet halfway or even think about how someone could find this to be deeply uncomfortable and fucked up, baked in the rancid /v/ vibes that literally anyone with a slight understanding of online aesthetic could see
Also bold of you saying that as if it applies to all eroge lol. I have eroge I like on my Played and I’d be more than happy to give examples where this isn’t a problem?? Maybe you should try to meet halfway or even think about how someone could find this to be deeply uncomfortable and fucked up, baked in the rancid /v/ vibes that literally anyone with a slight understanding of online aesthetic could see
Honestly I should have just stopped at the Rape defense lol. Yes plenty of antagonists are uncomfortably portrayed as raping their characters (bare in mind, the MC also pushes a few of the girls into questionable consent situations) that must mean it’s ok. Log off
I'm not saying that people can't find it uncomfortable. I'm just saying that I don't get your point and that it could apply to other games as well.
First of all, I apolgize for my English, I know is not the greatest one.
I just noticed that you are rating all the alicesoft's game with 1/2 star, including the one you have not played.
I just think that you are doing the same thing that the mass media are doing. In Gran Theft Auto you kill a lots of people, is rape worst than assassition? In a way that rape cannot be included in a videogame and assassination can?
You have rated Hotline Miami (one of my favourite videogames) 4 star. It's not about violence? Can a videogame be about violence, but not about rape? Can a videogame have a killer as a protagonist, but not a rapist? And ok, mayber Hotline Miami is not the best example since the actions of the protagonist are not excused, but in a videogame like GTA?
And hey, are all the JRPGs about excusing hunting?
Is hunting good and misogyny wrong?
Not a provocation, just curious about your opinion.
I just noticed that you are rating all the alicesoft's game with 1/2 star, including the one you have not played.
I just think that you are doing the same thing that the mass media are doing. In Gran Theft Auto you kill a lots of people, is rape worst than assassition? In a way that rape cannot be included in a videogame and assassination can?
You have rated Hotline Miami (one of my favourite videogames) 4 star. It's not about violence? Can a videogame be about violence, but not about rape? Can a videogame have a killer as a protagonist, but not a rapist? And ok, mayber Hotline Miami is not the best example since the actions of the protagonist are not excused, but in a videogame like GTA?
And hey, are all the JRPGs about excusing hunting?
Is hunting good and misogyny wrong?
Not a provocation, just curious about your opinion.
There's an aura of bizarreness to this to where I hesitate to respond, because the argument of "what about other media" i.e. whataboutism was already like a dark cloud of "do we really want to go here? Do you really think you could prove to me that I'm not knowledgeable of another example just like Rance and that you could change my mind by pointing to me, at best, finding other things just as problematic?" Like I know when I'm being led on false pretenses, so the continuation here is vastly more than weird to me. It just reads as "oh you stand against misogyny in media? Name every media with misogyny"
Like where do I begin with Nappone's comment here? Do I break down media analysis to explain how my narrative issue with framing is not at all congruent to an idea of "GTA condoning x" in, cough, """mass media""". Or weirdly pushing statements of:
"I'm against all portrayals of rape in media"
"I'm against all portrayals of misogyny in media"
etc. etc.
If I take this comment in the most charitable fashion it involves doing a monstrous amount of work just to explain that "did you know narratives in medium have something called framing, and the question of what is problematic is down to exactly what feels powerfully intended by the framing and/or the storytelling". No thanks, I think I'm just going to lock the comments now.
Like where do I begin with Nappone's comment here? Do I break down media analysis to explain how my narrative issue with framing is not at all congruent to an idea of "GTA condoning x" in, cough, """mass media""". Or weirdly pushing statements of:
"I'm against all portrayals of rape in media"
"I'm against all portrayals of misogyny in media"
etc. etc.
If I take this comment in the most charitable fashion it involves doing a monstrous amount of work just to explain that "did you know narratives in medium have something called framing, and the question of what is problematic is down to exactly what feels powerfully intended by the framing and/or the storytelling". No thanks, I think I'm just going to lock the comments now.
"Not a provocation, just curious about your opinion."
Wow.
Just asked for an opinion, was it necessary to be so edgy?
Jeez...
To answer you,
I understand that the problem for you is not "the game is mysogynistic", but "the author intend to emphasize the misogyny" (or better, the autor intend to apolgize the rape), but I just don't think this is enough to hate some videogame. I try to explain better. When it comes to videogame, that was my point, an author can create every sort of bad character, bad story. You know Hitler? Imaging a game condoning Hitler.
Wow.
Absurd.
But ehy, can i simpathize with Hitler in a videogame, hating him in real life? Yes, I can. And I think a nazi should be free to create a videogame with a prohitler plot, but ehy, I know my opinion is maybe too much libertiarian asd.
Just told you because I want you to know me a little better when it comes to my opinion about Alicesoft's game.
Rance series is full of dark humor about rape. The rape in Rance is funny. And that can make a lot of peoples unconfortable, I undertstand that and I understand that you, as a woman, can hate Rance. But you know what is cool about this game? You are a rapist and you don't enjoy that. Rance is like the worst person in the world. You will hate him 'cause the Author give him all sorts of joy, but you know he didn't deserve that. You play as someone you dislike, as the bad guy, better: the shittiest guy in the world. Framing, in my opinion, is about that. An hero can be the shittiest guy on the planet.
And what about Daibanchou? Don't know why you say it's "1000x more misogynistic than the rance game". Simply didn't see that. In this game everyone rape everyone lol. Iori is a trans girl ad it's raped, Camilla rapes, the protagonist rapes. Do not misquote me, it's mysogynistic, but, you know, just a little bit... It's an eroge, Japanese peoples jerks off on that.
(Please, be polite, do note need to be edgy, we are just discussing videogames, c'mon)
Wow.
Just asked for an opinion, was it necessary to be so edgy?
Jeez...
To answer you,
I understand that the problem for you is not "the game is mysogynistic", but "the author intend to emphasize the misogyny" (or better, the autor intend to apolgize the rape), but I just don't think this is enough to hate some videogame. I try to explain better. When it comes to videogame, that was my point, an author can create every sort of bad character, bad story. You know Hitler? Imaging a game condoning Hitler.
Wow.
Absurd.
But ehy, can i simpathize with Hitler in a videogame, hating him in real life? Yes, I can. And I think a nazi should be free to create a videogame with a prohitler plot, but ehy, I know my opinion is maybe too much libertiarian asd.
Just told you because I want you to know me a little better when it comes to my opinion about Alicesoft's game.
Rance series is full of dark humor about rape. The rape in Rance is funny. And that can make a lot of peoples unconfortable, I undertstand that and I understand that you, as a woman, can hate Rance. But you know what is cool about this game? You are a rapist and you don't enjoy that. Rance is like the worst person in the world. You will hate him 'cause the Author give him all sorts of joy, but you know he didn't deserve that. You play as someone you dislike, as the bad guy, better: the shittiest guy in the world. Framing, in my opinion, is about that. An hero can be the shittiest guy on the planet.
And what about Daibanchou? Don't know why you say it's "1000x more misogynistic than the rance game". Simply didn't see that. In this game everyone rape everyone lol. Iori is a trans girl ad it's raped, Camilla rapes, the protagonist rapes. Do not misquote me, it's mysogynistic, but, you know, just a little bit... It's an eroge, Japanese peoples jerks off on that.
(Please, be polite, do note need to be edgy, we are just discussing videogames, c'mon)
Trying to figure out what QuilDewIvy said that was edgy and am lost. Is this just an attempt at being tone police or am I being uncharitable?
@Tatsky:
"If I take this comment in the most charitable fashion it involves doing a monstrous amount of work just to explain that "did you know narratives in medium have something called framing, and the question of what is problematic is down to exactly what feels powerfully intended by the framing and/or the storytelling". No thanks, I think I'm just going to lock the comments now."
Just to give you an example. You can sure notice the sarcastic tone of Quil, like she was talking with a guy who are not worthy (or smart enough) to talk with. She just didn't answer me, she pointed a finger to the concept of "framing" like what I was saing was so stupid that it didn't deserve an answer and addressing me in third person (Like where do I begin with Nappone's comment here? Do I break down media analysis to explain how my narrative issue with framing is not at all congruent to an idea of "GTA condoning x" in, cough, """mass media""". Or weirdly pushing statements of), like he was talking to an indefinite mass of people to arrass my argomentantion. And well, the infamous "reductio ad memes": "You have an argomentation, let me just reduce that to a meme" (It just reads as "oh you stand against misogyny in media? Name every media with misogyny)
These are some of the attitude that I dislike the most when it comes to discussion. This arrogant tone, like the one who you are talking is an idiot and knows nothing.
Am I too sensitive or maybe Quil was (just a little bit) arrogant?
And Tatsky did I understand your comment and answer properly in a logic way? I'm not so good when it to comes to speak, read and write English, maybe you were asking another thing lol
"If I take this comment in the most charitable fashion it involves doing a monstrous amount of work just to explain that "did you know narratives in medium have something called framing, and the question of what is problematic is down to exactly what feels powerfully intended by the framing and/or the storytelling". No thanks, I think I'm just going to lock the comments now."
Just to give you an example. You can sure notice the sarcastic tone of Quil, like she was talking with a guy who are not worthy (or smart enough) to talk with. She just didn't answer me, she pointed a finger to the concept of "framing" like what I was saing was so stupid that it didn't deserve an answer and addressing me in third person (Like where do I begin with Nappone's comment here? Do I break down media analysis to explain how my narrative issue with framing is not at all congruent to an idea of "GTA condoning x" in, cough, """mass media""". Or weirdly pushing statements of), like he was talking to an indefinite mass of people to arrass my argomentantion. And well, the infamous "reductio ad memes": "You have an argomentation, let me just reduce that to a meme" (It just reads as "oh you stand against misogyny in media? Name every media with misogyny)
These are some of the attitude that I dislike the most when it comes to discussion. This arrogant tone, like the one who you are talking is an idiot and knows nothing.
Am I too sensitive or maybe Quil was (just a little bit) arrogant?
And Tatsky did I understand your comment and answer properly in a logic way? I'm not so good when it to comes to speak, read and write English, maybe you were asking another thing lol
I don’t think that was sarcastic, I think that was being literally blunt. You can even call it aggressive. Neither of which I’d call edgy. And this pointing to being arrogant and reducing the argument that way does point to being tone police (here’s a helpful link): https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tone_argument
The reason they referred to you in the third person is that there were 2 responses at once and I believe she was answering both because they fell into similar arguments, so she spearheaded the whole argument being made. How is pointing to framing... not answering you? I’m confused.
“ And well, the infamous "reductio ad memes": "You have an argomentation, let me just reduce that to a meme" (It just reads as "oh you stand against misogyny in media? Name every media with misogyny)”
That’s not a thing. Her example of referring to a meme is to highlight the whataboutism on display here:
“ A lot of eroge have their antagonists rape heroines”
And here:
“ If anything I'd say that something like FSN has a more misogynistic message than most of AliceSoft's games, and even that I wouldn't get bothered by. ”
And here:
“
I just think that you are doing the same thing that the mass media are doing. In Gran Theft Auto you kill a lots of people, is rape worst than assassition? In a way that rape cannot be included in a videogame and assassination can?
You have rated Hotline Miami (one of my favourite videogames) 4 star. It's not about violence? Can a videogame be about violence, but not about rape? Can a videogame have a killer as a protagonist, but not a rapist? And ok, mayber Hotline Miami is not the best example since the actions of the protagonist are not excused, but in a videogame like GTA?
And hey, are all the JRPGs about excusing hunting?
Is hunting good and misogyny wrong?”
This is WHATABOUTISM. Here’s a helpful link:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Whataboutism
The reason they referred to you in the third person is that there were 2 responses at once and I believe she was answering both because they fell into similar arguments, so she spearheaded the whole argument being made. How is pointing to framing... not answering you? I’m confused.
“ And well, the infamous "reductio ad memes": "You have an argomentation, let me just reduce that to a meme" (It just reads as "oh you stand against misogyny in media? Name every media with misogyny)”
That’s not a thing. Her example of referring to a meme is to highlight the whataboutism on display here:
“ A lot of eroge have their antagonists rape heroines”
And here:
“ If anything I'd say that something like FSN has a more misogynistic message than most of AliceSoft's games, and even that I wouldn't get bothered by. ”
And here:
“
I just think that you are doing the same thing that the mass media are doing. In Gran Theft Auto you kill a lots of people, is rape worst than assassition? In a way that rape cannot be included in a videogame and assassination can?
You have rated Hotline Miami (one of my favourite videogames) 4 star. It's not about violence? Can a videogame be about violence, but not about rape? Can a videogame have a killer as a protagonist, but not a rapist? And ok, mayber Hotline Miami is not the best example since the actions of the protagonist are not excused, but in a videogame like GTA?
And hey, are all the JRPGs about excusing hunting?
Is hunting good and misogyny wrong?”
This is WHATABOUTISM. Here’s a helpful link:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Also for someone who was complaining about tone, arrogance, and being mean, you liked a review (now removed) saying that Quil was “the most butthurt comment by someone who doesn’t even have a girlfriend”. So uh, maybe hypocritical?
Ok, so you agree with me: Quil was arrogant. I used edgy in a bad way... Do I need to apolgize? (Serious question, I know nothing about netiquette. Sorry if I use a bad word).
Than,
I wrote a 26 stripes intervention, in the 3th and 4th I wrote "Just asked for an opinion, was it necessary to be so edgy? Jeez..." and than I answered to what Quill said to me. You can remove these sentences from my intervention and nothing will change. So, well, if you want call me a "tone police" (by the way, didn't know this expression, thanks) for just puntualizing that the arrogant tone will be not necessary be my guest, I really don't know what to say.
"How is pointing to framing... not answering you? I’m confused."
Well, 'cause I don't understand in which way the "framing" in "Daibanchou is 1000x more mysogynistic than rance" asd neither why she thinks that Rance is a bad game, 'cause of fraiming.
About the whataboutism,
Ok, I admit that I didn't understand that.
"Also for someone who was complaining about tone, arrogance, and being mean, you liked a review (now removed) saying that Quil was “the most butthurt comment by someone who doesn’t even have a girlfriend”. So uh, maybe hypocritical?"
I literally wrote two sentences about her tone, you agreed with me that she was arrogant, I didn't expect that we are going to talk about rhetorical techniques asd.
I read the comment, I laughed, I liked. That's all, I don't think that I have to explain where is the difference between a joke (in infamous one, of course) and a serious discussion. In a serious discussion I hate the arrogant tone, so I asked to keep it down, that's simple. That's how I see this sort of things, I didn't pretend that you agree with me, of course, I'm just explaining.
By the way, I do not think that this discussion will ever going anywhere, we can close that right here, I lost every hope to get a normal exchange of opinions here (I'm sure that on rationalwiki you can find, I don't know, "ultrasurrender: when someone lose a conversation he just says that he doesn't want to continue". You are free to think that if you want, glad to emprove you day. I'm serious, but I will hate to waste my and your time in a useless discussion. Clearly we have two differents ways of approaching things).
Than,
I wrote a 26 stripes intervention, in the 3th and 4th I wrote "Just asked for an opinion, was it necessary to be so edgy? Jeez..." and than I answered to what Quill said to me. You can remove these sentences from my intervention and nothing will change. So, well, if you want call me a "tone police" (by the way, didn't know this expression, thanks) for just puntualizing that the arrogant tone will be not necessary be my guest, I really don't know what to say.
"How is pointing to framing... not answering you? I’m confused."
Well, 'cause I don't understand in which way the "framing" in "Daibanchou is 1000x more mysogynistic than rance" asd neither why she thinks that Rance is a bad game, 'cause of fraiming.
About the whataboutism,
Ok, I admit that I didn't understand that.
"Also for someone who was complaining about tone, arrogance, and being mean, you liked a review (now removed) saying that Quil was “the most butthurt comment by someone who doesn’t even have a girlfriend”. So uh, maybe hypocritical?"
I literally wrote two sentences about her tone, you agreed with me that she was arrogant, I didn't expect that we are going to talk about rhetorical techniques asd.
I read the comment, I laughed, I liked. That's all, I don't think that I have to explain where is the difference between a joke (in infamous one, of course) and a serious discussion. In a serious discussion I hate the arrogant tone, so I asked to keep it down, that's simple. That's how I see this sort of things, I didn't pretend that you agree with me, of course, I'm just explaining.
By the way, I do not think that this discussion will ever going anywhere, we can close that right here, I lost every hope to get a normal exchange of opinions here (I'm sure that on rationalwiki you can find, I don't know, "ultrasurrender: when someone lose a conversation he just says that he doesn't want to continue". You are free to think that if you want, glad to emprove you day. I'm serious, but I will hate to waste my and your time in a useless discussion. Clearly we have two differents ways of approaching things).
Unless you're literally misreading what I said, I didn't say what Quil said was arrogant. I feel you just projected that off of what I said. Being aggressive and blunt isn't arrogant.
"I lost every hope to get a normal exchange of opinions here (I'm sure that on rationalwiki you can find, I don't know, "ultrasurrender: when someone lose a conversation he just says that he doesn't want to continue"."
I'm glad my attempt at trying to be helpful in getting you to understand what Quil meant has turned into me apparently using RationalWiki as a "I'm right" thing which is not at all what I meant to do. >_<
I'm glad my attempt at trying to be helpful in getting you to understand what Quil meant has turned into me apparently using RationalWiki as a "I'm right" thing which is not at all what I meant to do. >_<
My conduct really means nothing vs. “ But ehy, can i simpathize with Hitler in a videogame, hating him in real life? Yes, I can. And I think a nazi should be free to create a videogame with a prohitler plot, but ehy, I know my opinion is maybe too much libertiarian asd.” and this has honestly gone so off the rails that I’d rather just block and move on than engage with this bullshit
@Baka_Ouji B A Z I N G A
i want to be friends w Nappon but he's banned or sumth :( he was chill
GCNess
3 years ago