[spoilers for game]

You don't control the horse, you control a person riding the horse. Believe it or not but actually guiding a horse is very difficult. The horse in Shadow of the Colossus was designed to be not merely a function that we have control over but an accurate interpretation of actually riding a horse. That is why I cared when Agro died. He is not just a mechanic, he is a character. I feel bad saying that he is a thing that was programmed for a video game because he really does feel like a real horse. He is a friend, I care about him. That's the point of him being unwieldy and saying that games shouldn't have the balls to make you experience this is incredibly shortsighted as far as I'm concerned.

I get the impression that you don't like the fact that this game makes you struggle. It makes me sad that some people scoff at unpleasantness in games. And if you think that a game should be fun all the time (unless it's a horror game) or that a game being purposefully unwieldy pretentious, frankly I don't want people like you to contribute to games discussion. If you (and others) keep this mindset, more games will compromise on their goals to appeal to someone who wants to consume them like candy. I'm sorry to sound so rude but this really does make me sad.

completely disagree with that guys sentiment that you dont deserve a voice in games discussion. i think “atrocious” and “a pain” is exaggerating the struggle a bit but to some extent i do think thats the intent behind the game. its not supposed to be super fun to kill these mystical animals, but the intended effect does go too far for a lot of people ive noticed. anyway point of this comment was that you are not in a huge minority with this take. you never mentioned the music though and if you think thats bad too then frankly i dont want people like you contributing to games discussion

@HylianBran "I dont want people like you to contribute to games discussions"

Holy crap that first reply blows

You're absolutely right, SotC is a drag. It's gorgeous, monotonous, and miserable. Why bother playing something you don't enjoy, right?

To imply that someone who doesn't vibe with that shouldn't get to talk about games is like saying someone who doesn't like The Road or Salò shouldn't talk about movies. Absolutely beyond pretentious.

You have your own personal opinions and thoughts and honestly it pigs me the fudge off!!

@HylianBran mind your business

HylianBran with the goated username and good point regarding the game only to waste it all on a dumbass conclusion.

You had the chance to be equitable and provide another awesome viewpoint and instead used your voice to silence someone else. Jackass move, homie.

@HylianBran you had a valid point until you acted like an elitist jerk about it. Also what’s it to you if someone doesn’t like it even with that context? Get over it instead of telling people they’re not welcome in games discussion. Absolutely pretentious.

Dear @HylianBran ,

I think your reply ended in a way which some could consider rude or mean. Now I’m sure you didn’t mean this and, yeah I’ve had my moments where I feel like I have to say something that may not sound nice, but consider what you’re saying. Sure, making games more broadly appealing will make them less awesome sometimes. But imagine a game that had a poor mechanic or difficult area that filtered you. You probably felt sad that you couldn’t do it, right? I would feel sad too. Like I’m being told I’m not good enough. Being able to share my gripes with the portion of the game I had trouble with, whether I believe it to be a misbalanced design, an oversight, or any other aspect… I believe it is anyone’s right to complain about it. Developers seeing these criticisms may lead them to remove it from further games in general, not just games of the series, and it may dilute the design to be more mainstream and less awesome. Yet, I humbly believe that its not acceptable to ask people to just not complain. To ask people to not air their grievances on their private videogame journaling account. I know you meant no harm, but I just wanted to share my thoughts on the matter. Gamer to gamer.

- Elkmane

@HylianBran bro just a little social advice, this type of comment should be left to be said only within your friend circle or something very close to that, not to strangers who you don't know, in a mostly casual site. you had a point (I don't agree with it at first, but you undoubtedly had a discussable point) but where and how you decided to show the said point, just turned you into a clown.
time and place
time and place.

See, this is why I'm a devout member of the Church of @Elkmane

i pretty strongly disagree with peoples sentiments that sotc is unwieldy in the first place. sure it's not very similar to other games, but that's perfectly fine because its approach to game design is different from other titles. there's definitely a high level of immersion in the way wander animates and behaves (as well as agro) but to claim it's clunky and difficult just brushes off a lack of skill in my eyes

it's not like we talk about shit like dmc being hard to get into because of some ludonarrative bullshit with weapon mastery, or super mario 1's momentum and physics being strange to emulate how difficult it is to really jump on turtles as an unskilled plumber man

all this shit is silly to me. y'know why you dont like sotc? because you don't like its style of gameplay. while i love everything about the game, i'd enjoy it even without the narrative. i find it very weighty and satisfying to stab colossi as an insignificant little ant man. but it's not for everyone

@HylianBran Lol. Games like these aren't going to appeal to everyone, it's a fact. Trying to silence a common criticism just because you personally disagree with it, whether it's warranted in your opinion or not, comes across as selfish. I understand it may mean games you like won't get made as much, but that's just a fact of life. A person whose only ever played one game deserves just as much of a voice as someone whose played thousands, so long as they're honest and aware of their perspective.

@thealexmott thank you. I'm not a god, but I can't stop you from and many many others saying so. And I wont. I guess i'm just humble like that. I hope you dont mind if i light up smokes cool cigar

I apologize for being so rude but I stand by the belief that games shouldn't try to compromise on these sorts of things. If a game is worse for doing something that happens to bother some people, than theoretically the best games are ones that appeal to literally everyone. Ones that are made just to get the most positive feedback as possible, which I think is very unfortunate. I'll try to phrase this another way: think about all the things you're missing out on if you think it is bad for games to make you feel bad. There are so many great games that have pushed the way I think about games by doing something purposefully unpleasant. I have no problems with games that strive for frivolous, unstructured fun, but the fact is that we see games that make us feel good as being unquestionably good, whereas games that make us feel bad are more often than not called bad or at least pretentious.

Imagine you're watching a movie and there is a scene that makes you feel bad. The camera is shaking uncomfortably, the characters are angry at each other. Now, the movie is considered good for that. It is okay for the movie to make us feel that way. Now, if a video game featured this same situation in a cutscene, we would also praise it, because it makes us feel uncomfortable in ways that we already allow to make us feel bad. You know, since films are respectable.

Agro is just the same as that, except in a way that only a game can portray. If you want to make him jump over an edge, it requires effort. It doesn't feel good to push him in that way. In theory, this should be treated just the film making us feel bad, but it isn't. We think that games should always feel good to interact with. Our intentions should be realized as close as possible. I disagree with this assertion. I think games should always strive to make us feel how they want us to feel. Now, if the game wants us to feel good all the time, that's alright. If that's how it wants us to feel. But if it wants us to feel things like this, it shouldn't be seen as misguided for doing that.

Also I take back saying you shouldn't be allowed in game discussion. I think your way of thinking about this in particular is unfortunate, I VERY strongly disagree with it, but it still contributes in some way our collective image of the game and I am thankful for that. I said that because hearing things like this in response to games that want to communicate something that people find unpleasant makes me upset. I want things to change, I want everyone to at least acknowledge that even if they don't like something like this in a game that it isn't a mistake. The horse does not have "bad" controls, it just has controls that didn't align with your intentions. I wouldn't say that makes them "bad," because they accomplish exactly what they were intended to. Bubsy 3D has bad control because it almost certainly wasn't intended to make you feel what it does. That is bad. This is not bad. At least I think so.

@HylianBran i dont think many people disagreed with your thesis about game design, just the point seemingly about what does and does not constitute a “valid” opinion. if someone isnt enjoying something in a game that you deem as intentionally unenjoyable, apparently that makes them at best not cognizant enough to understand it. i get what youre trying to say, and i even had the same experience with the game that you did, but it does read as pretty condescending when you essentially say “filtered” in such long form. this website is no stranger to weighing up its cool points in equivalence to how obtuse their favorite games are so youre mostly preaching to the choir on this one anyway. far and away the most important thing about discussing video games is that people actually play them and try things that they might not enjoy, and if they dont they shouldnt feel like they were just too stupid to get it. theres plenty of critically acclaimed games on here that i absolutely fuckin despise but what matters is having something to say at all. cant we all just get along

@HylianBran I can see that you're really passionate about this and I don't necessarily disagree with all your points, but I mainly play games to have fun. I like a good challenge but not all games resonate with me, regardless of the "intended game design". I love plenty of games with bad gameplay myself. I'm glad some people enjoy SotC despite its clunky gameplay, but I didn't. That's all there is to it.

@MultiGenre gets it. +1 to that.

didn't find the controls that bad but i did find it a bit monotonous going from colossi to colossi, great game still but I get it

This is one of those games whose fans believe that they are entitled to never see genuine criticism. Internet basement-dweller culture has grown this strong groupthink mentality where "I disagree with you" = "You're wrong and shouldn't be allowed to talk."

Ignore these assholes; it's a good review as long as it's true to your experience.

@cowboyjosh no. I am a fan of this game and I have heard plenty of great criticism for it. I very much disagreed with this assessment of the game and I did not like it. I have also taken back my statement about wanting the person to stop talking. I clearly addressed something that I sincerely feel, not to shut someone up but because I believe it.

Also having an opinion about video games does not also mean I live in a basement. I'll have you know that I recently met a very kind, intelligent man who lives in a basement. If he played video games he would probably have opinions about them and they should not be considered illegitimate because he lives in a basement.

i aint gonna lambast someone for a little "don't ever share your opinion again." i get the sentiment, i was there for "Persona without the Heart", and i'm currently living through "mecha souls". it's not the right thing to say, but sometimes you gotta say it anyway, you feel me?

@cowboyjosh please, he has already apologized and reworded his argument to be kinder. This doesn't need to be an angry argument!!!!!!!

@cowboyjosh I'm not sure what you expect. I'm not being rude or angry, so as far as I'm concerned you're just trying to shut me up. I'm not offending anyone now. Nobody is upset now. I would kind of understand what you're saying if the writer of the review was angry, but they aren't. They don't seem at all upset.

Sorry for continuing to perpetuate this. Thanks for the nice words 🙂

Wolfenstein II: The Shadow of the New Colossus